Comments on: the english cut wars have begun http://gapingvoid.com/2005/06/05/the-english-cut-wars-have-begun/ "cartoons drawn on the back of business cards" Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:52:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: elizabeth grigg http://gapingvoid.com/2005/06/05/the-english-cut-wars-have-begun/#comment-6431 elizabeth grigg Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:22:25 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1546#comment-6431 <strong>"Vague Sartorial Fetish"</strong> Sign me up!... “Vague Sartorial Fetish”

Sign me up!…

]]> By: frosty http://gapingvoid.com/2005/06/05/the-english-cut-wars-have-begun/#comment-6430 frosty Sun, 05 Jun 2005 22:58:07 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1546#comment-6430 Interesting about the successful crossovers, but I still think Thomas has a special market opportunity. In short, I had never heard of those two other guys, but I have heard of Thomas. And I bet there are a lot of people in the same boat. As to Paul's argument about buying into the wrong brand - if you're paying $3000 for a suit, aren't you paying that because you *like* the suit? That's the key: all the stories, conversations, brands... if the product is good enough, it's all about getting people close enough so they want to own the product. It looks like that's already happened as far as Thomas is able to meet demand. I don't think English Cut Outlets would really work, but I do think you can find a way to sell high-quality clothing at a lower price point and have it scale up. Maybe use the Internet somehow... :-) Interesting about the successful crossovers, but I still think Thomas has a special market opportunity. In short, I had never heard of those two other guys, but I have heard of Thomas. And I bet there are a lot of people in the same boat.
As to Paul’s argument about buying into the wrong brand – if you’re paying $3000 for a suit, aren’t you paying that because you *like* the suit?
That’s the key: all the stories, conversations, brands… if the product is good enough, it’s all about getting people close enough so they want to own the product. It looks like that’s already happened as far as Thomas is able to meet demand. I don’t think English Cut Outlets would really work, but I do think you can find a way to sell high-quality clothing at a lower price point and have it scale up.
Maybe use the Internet somehow… :-)

]]> By: hugh macleod http://gapingvoid.com/2005/06/05/the-english-cut-wars-have-begun/#comment-6429 hugh macleod Sun, 05 Jun 2005 20:52:48 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1546#comment-6429 Fair points, Paul (My God, he REALLY cares)... OK, let me put it another way... When you talk with a good, honest Savile Row tailor about prices, what he does is allow you options. For Fair points, Paul (My God, he REALLY cares)…
OK, let me put it another way…
When you talk with a good, honest Savile Row tailor about prices, what he does is allow you options.
For

]]> By: Paul Robinson http://gapingvoid.com/2005/06/05/the-english-cut-wars-have-begun/#comment-6428 Paul Robinson Sun, 05 Jun 2005 20:35:37 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1546#comment-6428 One more thing - sorry if I was ranting. I just care a lot about.. well... everything. One more thing – sorry if I was ranting. I just care a lot about.. well… everything.

]]> By: Paul Robinson http://gapingvoid.com/2005/06/05/the-english-cut-wars-have-begun/#comment-6427 Paul Robinson Sun, 05 Jun 2005 20:18:32 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1546#comment-6427 OK, look it's your business, you're not going to listen to a schmuck like me, and I wish you well regardless. But before you commit, consider these points: 1. How is 'the story' as Godin would put it, evolving? How can you make it clear the story you want to tell now doesn't contradict the one you gave the perception of telling a few months ago? All that talk of inner linings and making suits hang well is all very compelling. It raises my expectations of what to find in a suit - well done, I've become a more educated buyer of suits. However, how does the story you're about to start telling compliment it? It doesn't. 2. How much money would Burberry give to go back and stop the decision to making cheap/accessible product available to anybody who wanted to buy into the brand? Puma made a similar mistake in trying to become accessible to a market that they thought would give them increased sales and street cred - it resulted in their brand being associated with gun and drug crime in the West Indies. Think back to your blogcard on sheep/wolf - listen to your own voice. 3. if I go to a suit shop where I'm buying Ready-to-Wear, I know what I'm getting. If I go to M&S, I know what story I'm telling the people who notice I'm wearing M&S. Here in Manchester, almost every bloke who is suited goes to Slater's - they're rubbish, cheap and the only tailor-like thing going on is the personal service. However, the story is clear - I don't want to wear this, but I have to, so I made it cheap and functional. What am I saying if I wear English Cut? What does somebody say when they wear Burberry these days? Even the expensive boutique stuff - it's the wrong image. Sorry if you think I'm being a snob, or churlish, but why would I want to pay $3000 to be identified with a clique who have a different set of values to my own? This is how marketing really works - it's how that suit makes me feel about myself, after all. 4. The point about Ferrari is valid. If they made a people carrier or a competitor to the Ford Focus, would it sell? Oh yes. Would they sell any more high-performance sports cars? Probably not. And you know what, their merchandise sales - flags at GPs through to baseball caps - would fall off overnight. I just think this isn't a move you should make quickly, that's all. I was pretty convinced that next spring I'd be making some orders with Thomas. Now, well, I don't know, honestly. If he's prepared to tell me that I can have a perfectly good suit for $600 that he has had some hand in somehow, I'm not sure what the value of the $3000 suit is any more, because he's educating me into thinking something contrary to what I currently believe. Bah, I don't know what to think any more. I'll just shut up. And thanks for the link - I'll link back in some meaningful way at some point soon. OK, look it’s your business, you’re not going to listen to a schmuck like me, and I wish you well regardless. But before you commit, consider these points:
1. How is ‘the story’ as Godin would put it, evolving? How can you make it clear the story you want to tell now doesn’t contradict the one you gave the perception of telling a few months ago? All that talk of inner linings and making suits hang well is all very compelling. It raises my expectations of what to find in a suit – well done, I’ve become a more educated buyer of suits. However, how does the story you’re about to start telling compliment it? It doesn’t.
2. How much money would Burberry give to go back and stop the decision to making cheap/accessible product available to anybody who wanted to buy into the brand? Puma made a similar mistake in trying to become accessible to a market that they thought would give them increased sales and street cred – it resulted in their brand being associated with gun and drug crime in the West Indies.
Think back to your blogcard on sheep/wolf – listen to your own voice.
3. if I go to a suit shop where I’m buying Ready-to-Wear, I know what I’m getting. If I go to M&S, I know what story I’m telling the people who notice I’m wearing M&S. Here in Manchester, almost every bloke who is suited goes to Slater’s – they’re rubbish, cheap and the only tailor-like thing going on is the personal service. However, the story is clear – I don’t want to wear this, but I have to, so I made it cheap and functional.
What am I saying if I wear English Cut? What does somebody say when they wear Burberry these days? Even the expensive boutique stuff – it’s the wrong image.
Sorry if you think I’m being a snob, or churlish, but why would I want to pay $3000 to be identified with a clique who have a different set of values to my own? This is how marketing really works – it’s how that suit makes me feel about myself, after all.
4. The point about Ferrari is valid. If they made a people carrier or a competitor to the Ford Focus, would it sell? Oh yes. Would they sell any more high-performance sports cars? Probably not. And you know what, their merchandise sales – flags at GPs through to baseball caps – would fall off overnight.
I just think this isn’t a move you should make quickly, that’s all.
I was pretty convinced that next spring I’d be making some orders with Thomas. Now, well, I don’t know, honestly. If he’s prepared to tell me that I can have a perfectly good suit for $600 that he has had some hand in somehow, I’m not sure what the value of the $3000 suit is any more, because he’s educating me into thinking something contrary to what I currently believe.
Bah, I don’t know what to think any more. I’ll just shut up. And thanks for the link – I’ll link back in some meaningful way at some point soon.

]]> By: brian moffatt http://gapingvoid.com/2005/06/05/the-english-cut-wars-have-begun/#comment-6426 brian moffatt Sun, 05 Jun 2005 20:14:14 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1546#comment-6426 Quickly, I'm still thinking that the single differentiation between bespoke (and hence the English Cut 'brand') and everything else out there is (forget the three categories, they're all one i.e. not English Cut; English Cut its own category, to get tacky about it) falls back to the training of the apprentices, a keystone when this thing originally launched, an element of the story that has stuck with me. The scalability runs underground. Ten English Cut outlets worldwide, housed in the corner of a boutique hotel (or whatever, wherever) wherein one finds two genuine article bespoke apprentices, preferably blonde, female, with genuine English accents. (okay forget the last part... I just had a flashback to a talentless account person I worked with once with a brutal RP accent who fooled all sorts of Americans - she herself born and raised in Wichita...ignorance premium...never mind...) Skill and eye matched with appreciation through a highly personal developing relationship. The success or failure of the brand will depend upon Thom's commitment to the ethic, not the product, which got him there. Oddly. Or not so oddly. The skill shifts to patterning, nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure of this I'm just throwing it out there. Call me a romantic, but the guild/artisan storyline has great appeal. Paul's rant's a good one, too, btw. Quickly,
I’m still thinking that the single differentiation between bespoke (and hence the English Cut ‘brand’) and everything else out there is (forget the three categories, they’re all one i.e. not English Cut; English Cut its own category, to get tacky about it) falls back to the training of the apprentices, a keystone when this thing originally launched, an element of the story that has stuck with me.
The scalability runs underground. Ten English Cut outlets worldwide, housed in the corner of a boutique hotel (or whatever, wherever) wherein one finds two genuine article bespoke apprentices, preferably blonde, female, with genuine English accents. (okay forget the last part… I just had a flashback to a talentless account person I worked with once with a brutal RP accent who fooled all sorts of Americans – she herself born and raised in Wichita…ignorance premium…never mind…)
Skill and eye matched with appreciation through a highly personal developing relationship. The success or failure of the brand will depend upon Thom’s commitment to the ethic, not the product, which got him there. Oddly. Or not so oddly. The skill shifts to patterning, nothing wrong with that.
I’m not sure of this I’m just throwing it out there. Call me a romantic, but the guild/artisan storyline has great appeal.
Paul’s rant’s a good one, too, btw.

]]> By: hugh macleod http://gapingvoid.com/2005/06/05/the-english-cut-wars-have-begun/#comment-6425 hugh macleod Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:50:31 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1546#comment-6425 Well, two other Savile Row tailors have moved into ready-to-wear quite successfully- Oswald Boateng and Richard James... but their schtick is much more a trendy, glamorboy fashion thing... suits costing between $1-2K. Richard James actually never was a Savile Row tailor. His background was the fashion world. Theirs is actually quite tough market- if you're willing to spend $2K on a ready-to-wear, why not just go the hold hog with $3000 bespoke? Plus, to maintain "the image" you have to spend heavily on glamorboy advertising and PR... not to mention Savile Row rents. As I wrote above, there are three main ready-to-wear suit schticks: Olde-Worlde, glamorboy and cheap-and-boring (with the third option often posing as the second option i.e. second and third tier designer labels, like the Oscar De La Renta that Frosty mentioned.). The more I think about English Cut, the more I think all three are going to be pissed off by us. Especially the Italian end of the market. But that may be a good thing... Well, two other Savile Row tailors have moved into ready-to-wear quite successfully- Oswald Boateng and Richard James… but their schtick is much more a trendy, glamorboy fashion thing… suits costing between $1-2K. Richard James actually never was a Savile Row tailor. His background was the fashion world.
Theirs is actually quite tough market- if you’re willing to spend $2K on a ready-to-wear, why not just go the hold hog with $3000 bespoke? Plus, to maintain “the image” you have to spend heavily on glamorboy advertising and PR… not to mention Savile Row rents.
As I wrote above, there are three main ready-to-wear suit schticks: Olde-Worlde, glamorboy and cheap-and-boring (with the third option often posing as the second option i.e. second and third tier designer labels, like the Oscar De La Renta that Frosty mentioned.).
The more I think about English Cut, the more I think all three are going to be pissed off by us. Especially the Italian end of the market.
But that may be a good thing…

]]> By: frosty http://gapingvoid.com/2005/06/05/the-english-cut-wars-have-begun/#comment-6424 frosty Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:22:15 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1546#comment-6424 Nice exchange. If Paul had not been in rant mode he would've had some good points, and you addressed them well anyway. Here's a thought: if Fashion Designers can cross over to larger markets without anyone worrying about it, why not Bespoke Tailors? I almost never need to wear suit-like things, but I'm starting to approach the age where I want to. I recently needed a versatile, dress-it-up or dress-it-down kind of sportcoat, and I was on a tight budget (around $200). I went to one of the most un-glamorous shops imaginable and got something I really like. When I took it home after the alterations, I noticed the label: Oscar de la Renta. My point here is that I didn't care about the label, who knows if Oscar even had anything to do with the design, and it was purchased in boring-land. But if you google for Oscar de la Renta, you don't find a lot of people complaining about his putting his name on decent, non-flashy $200 coats. A more intriguing example is what Yohji Yamamoto is doing with Adidas, though it's probably less applicable to the English Cut question. Now, thanks to the Hughtrain marketing push, Thomas Mahon is almost certainly the *only* Saville Row tailor known to a lot of people who don't buy bespoke (nor move in those circles). In fact, the only bespoke tailor of any kind known to that many people outside the scene. Granted, it's not a huge number of people, but it's a bunch and it'll keep growing if you keep things on the right track. So here you have a unique opportunity. You've created an awareness of Thomas that *already* extends far beyond his potential bespoke clientelle. And he's the first of his kind to have that, at least as far as I know. You guys pretty much have to do something with this. And if you don't fuck it up, you're going to make history (and a pile of cash). Nice exchange. If Paul had not been in rant mode he would’ve had some good points, and you addressed them well anyway.
Here’s a thought: if Fashion Designers can cross over to larger markets without anyone worrying about it, why not Bespoke Tailors?
I almost never need to wear suit-like things, but I’m starting to approach the age where I want to. I recently needed a versatile, dress-it-up or dress-it-down kind of sportcoat, and I was on a tight budget (around $200). I went to one of the most un-glamorous shops imaginable and got something I really like. When I took it home after the alterations, I noticed the label: Oscar de la Renta.
My point here is that I didn’t care about the label, who knows if Oscar even had anything to do with the design, and it was purchased in boring-land. But if you google for Oscar de la Renta, you don’t find a lot of people complaining about his putting his name on decent, non-flashy $200 coats.
A more intriguing example is what Yohji Yamamoto is doing with Adidas, though it’s probably less applicable to the English Cut question.
Now, thanks to the Hughtrain marketing push, Thomas Mahon is almost certainly the *only* Saville Row tailor known to a lot of people who don’t buy bespoke (nor move in those circles). In fact, the only bespoke tailor of any kind known to that many people outside the scene. Granted, it’s not a huge number of people, but it’s a bunch and it’ll keep growing if you keep things on the right track.
So here you have a unique opportunity. You’ve created an awareness of Thomas that *already* extends far beyond his potential bespoke clientelle. And he’s the first of his kind to have that, at least as far as I know.
You guys pretty much have to do something with this. And if you don’t fuck it up, you’re going to make history (and a pile of cash).

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