Comments on: english cut ready-to-wear

By: Katherine

Katherine — Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:15:24 +0000

Bespoke doesn’t scale. This is news? Artisanal products have never scaled.
I predict that English Cut’s venture into volume production will lead to another brilliant realization: manufacturing imposes tradeoffs among price, customization, and quality. You can balance the tradeoffs differently than other manufacturers, but you can’t make them go away.

By: Rohan Jayasekera

Rohan Jayasekera — Mon, 06 Jun 2005 06:56:42 +0000

I almost agree that "people want to be measured by tailors, not machines": just change "tailors" to "people who appear to know what they're doing". One of the distinguishing characteristics of The Fitter is that a human still measures the customer, using a mechanical device that is in effect an improved measuring tape. The process takes 15-20 minutes, as 46 measurements are taken (not like the 3D body scanning systems), and the measurements are quite accurate as long as the employee is trained (and doesn't have a bad hangover: that happened once and the resulting suit was beyond saving). Then the software recommends what to order, based on those measurements - but the employee can make adjustments if desired (this is primarily for the veterans who want to add value; in fact even the inventor of the device admits that the system does better than he does and no longer "improves" its recommendations). The measuring device is also able to take an inseam measurement without any embarrassing closeness between the employee's hands and the customer's groin - which permits female staff to completely measure a man, and men tend to buy more from women (some women, anyway). So the system continues with the human element, but leaves the hard part to the experts whose knowledge has been embedded in software. I agree that your future ready-to-wear products will best serve those who have a close-to-"ideal" body. For those who don't, and there are many of them, those who can't afford bespoke should really go for made-to-measure. Made-to-measure will also give a slightly better fit than ready-to-wear even for those who are able to wear off-the-rack. You referred to the weakness of made-to-measure in its dependence on skilled "tape men" (as we call them here in North America); in fact The Fitter was developed specifically to solve that problem, together with the matching problem of finding people to make difficult alterations to ready-to-wear garments. Fundamentally, we see made-to-measure as a valuable approach, but one that's been held back by various limitations that we believe we have eliminated. It fills the gap between bespoke and ready to wear.

By: Robert Paterson

Robert Paterson — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:02:25 +0000

Hugh
The guys at Hackett went down this road 20 years ago — they began by selling used bespoke and then made to measure suits with bespoke features. A few shops and then inserts in major retailers.

By: hugh macleod

hugh macleod — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:17:59 +0000

"You're not there yet, if you go ready-to-wear too early, you'll be known for ready-to-wear. For me, this is by far the biggest issue, assuming of course that you want to be known as the best suit brand in the world." That's an excellent point. That being said, I'm guessing it'll be at least a couple of years before we have a ready-to-wear line ready to launch. I'm just including my readers in the conversation at an extremely early stage. Meanwhile, there's other (very exciting) stuff about to happen which will accelerate the "bespoke" conversation... which I'll go public with at a later date.

By: hugh macleod

hugh macleod — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:31:50 +0000

Also, Rohan:
Sure, off-the-peg has fit issues. That being said, Thomas wears a lot of off-the-peg himself (jackets, not suits), when he’s dressing casual. His body size is luckily well shaped for it. So he doesn’t have an aversion for it that perhaps a 6’6″, 300 pound man would. Which makes it easier for him to sell.
So maybe our market is just for people who either want full-on bespoke or are well sized for off-the-peg jackets. Perhaps the people who don’t want either would be better off finding another tailor?
[First rule of business: don’t try to sell to everybody.]

By: Rich...!

Rich...! — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:25:54 +0000

Here’s an idea then.
Why not get a computer to kick out gapingvoid.com knockoff cartoons so other people can use them too, and syndicate the blog cards to a whole load of printers so that everyone can have them?
Paul’s comparison to Ferrari is spot on. People spend a lot of money for the feeling they get when they’re seen in (as opposed to driving) one.
As for the Armani, Hugo Boss, Ralph Lauren issue. I wonder how long they were trading before they opted for a ready-to-wear option? Also, as far as I know, they were never (selling) Savile Row in the first place.
So people are talking about English Cut, that rocks, really, but here’s the thing, they’re talking about a bespoke tailor (old school) that blogs (new school) they’re not talking about the suits…yet.
Why not let the pure-bred suits settle in the market for a year or so, get people talking about the amazing craftsmanship, and the comments they get from people when they wear it? With respect, right now you say that it’s the best suit in the world, but I think my Mum’s lasagne is the best in the world, others disagree, the proof of course is in the eating.
You’re not there yet, if you go ready-to-wear too early, you’ll be known for ready-to-wear. For me, this is by far the biggest issue, assuming of course that you want to be known as the best suit brand in the world.
Two last suggestions:
Read Stephen Brown’s “Free Gift Inside”
Don’t believe your own PR…!

By: hugh macleod

hugh macleod — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:40:15 +0000

I know of these machines. I also know similar machines in the past have not been too successful.
Why? Simple– people want to be measured by tailors, not machines. It’s all part of the experience. Perception is everything.
But perhaps people’s attitudes have changed etc. So good luck to you.
At all levels of the suit business, from $89 WalMart to $8,000 Savile Row, there are compromises in price, design, fit, brand image, time between order and delivery, scalability etc etc.
So then the question is what cocktail of compromises are the suppliers and the customers willing to make. There is no one answer. If there was, we’d all be doing the same thing already.

By: Rohan Jayasekera

Rohan Jayasekera — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 14:39:12 +0000

I too am surprised to hear you talk about ready to wear, given your appreciation of a proper fit. Generally, only those who have a close-to-"perfect" body get a good fit with ready to wear, because it's not practical to make all the alterations required to properly fit anyone else. The only way to get a good fit without the cost of bespoke is made to measure, which someone else mentioned earlier. Yes, the "tailors" required to do the measuring have been a problem. However, there is now a way to do made-to-measure without them. Anyone with a couple of days' training can do it, if armed with a system called "The Fitter". The Fitter combines a mechanical body-measuring device with software that determines what to order, based on how the human experts do it. Details at http://www.thefitter.com/. Not yet in the UK, but it's at the Saks Fifth Avenue flagship store in New York City, plus some other places in the USA, Canada and France. (Disclosure: I am involved in the company.)

By: hugh macleod

hugh macleod — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 14:34:34 +0000

Heh. Paul, five points:
1. I never said off-the-peg was crap. I said designer label was crap, for the money they’re asking. Big difference.
As Thomas said in one of his posts:
“Luckily for suit lovers everywhere, with modern technology there are now some really good ready-to-wear, manufactured suits being made, starting at only a few hundred pounds. Fifty years ago, suits that were both good and cheap did not exist. The tech simply wasn’t there.”
Also:
“For the money, the British high street retailer, Marks & Spencer makes as good a suit as anyone. I rate them highly.”
M&S suits are around the

By: Jack Yan

Jack Yan — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:58:00 +0000

All I can say is, ‘Please keep me posted.’ The Lucire Men supplement launches next month. Anything that’s slightly disruptive is welcome.

By: Paul Robinson

Paul Robinson — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 03:37:54 +0000

If there aren’t more than 12 tailors in the world who can cut as well as English Cut, you’ve just found your new market.
Sell scholarships to tailors. Improve the tailors. Show them, for $20,000 and over 12 months how to do it right. Then hire them.
You’ve spent the last lord-knows-how-many-months telling us how rubbish non-bespoke is. You’ve just said that there are only 12 tailors in the world who are as good.
What are you now saying? That you want to sell crap. You are, by definition of your own marketing, your OWN WORDS, proposing to sell complete and utter crap. Because you know, that’s what scaling is all about after all. To hell with everything we’ve just said, let’s just pile up some sweatshop goods and sell them for a huge markup. Sure, we spent the last six months telling the world that quality is worth paying for, but if they can’t afford it, what the hell? We’ve got kids to put through college, and who care about the customer?! NOT US!
Seriously, do this, you’ll see your business die within weeks. You will be heralded as two-faced liars. It’ll kill English Cut, permanently. You can’t have two marketing campaigns that contradict each other. If you must have two sales channels, let them complement rather than conflict — take a leaf out of Tesco’s book re: Value vs. Finest.
Unfortunately, as Seth Godin would put it, you’ve already started telling your story. The story you now want to start selling directly conflicts with the one you’ve already started. You can’t do it without losing everything.
Seriously, your way forward is to find a way of getting bespoke to everybody — sell scholarships, sell training, deal with it.

By: hugh macleod

hugh macleod — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:48:15 +0000

I’m always amused when people say “just hire more tailors”.
I seriously doubt there are 12 tailors in the world who can cut at English Cut’s level.

By: hugh macleod

hugh macleod — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:34:42 +0000

Paul, cars are not Ferrari’s sole income stream. T-shirts, fashion brands, accessories etc.
Secondly, English Cut is not aspirational.

By: Paul Robinson

Paul Robinson — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:03:24 +0000

Don’t do it. Really. It’s a sell-out. Hire more tailors and cutters if you want to scale.
I’m currently on a diet to lose a lot of weight that has built up over the years. Once I’m down another 4–5 stone (already lost 3 stone in 6 months), and I hold it at that level for a few months, I’m going bespoke suit — no point in buying expensive suits if they’re only going to fit properly for a couple of months.
I would easily buy 5 in the first few months. I would consider English cut. I am your market.
However, if you did ready-to-wear, I’d think “Here are people who want money more than they want quality. They want to compromise in the name of wealth”. That goes against every value I hold — it’s vulgar and nobody wishes to be robed in symbols of vulgarity. You’d lose my custom for one.
Sorry if this sounds very Victorian, but bespoke suits hold values that do not scale in the way you intend. If you can’t handle the demand, recruit more people like Thomas or get Thomas to train people. You could have tailors and cutters all over the world.
What you’re proposing is akin to Ferrari producing a people carrier because more people could then afford a people carrier. That’s how Burberry got into the hideous mess they’re in now with the chavs. English cut is supposed to be aspirational, not accessible. Don’t throw that position away — it’s just outright foolish nonsense.

By: Peter Cooper

Peter Cooper — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 04:15:21 +0000

Wow, $50,000 for a suit. Still, I guess big money has to be spent if you want to have a suit made out of an endangered, protected species.