April 4, 2005
this is a whole different league
A Savile Row suit takes about 4 – 8 weeks to make, from placing the order, to having the “forward”, to getting the final product on your back. And if you live abroad, it can take even longer.
In a recent gapingvoid comment, John ponders “whether the extended delivery times of old were due to inefficient businesses or a desire to artificially make the product seem special.”
My reply:
Shortening the delivery times is definitely cutting corners. But sometimes that’s just as much the customer’s fault, for not understanding how the game actually works.
Let’s say you’re Mr Jones, and you bought a suit last year from Tom, which you loved. So let’s say you want another one, just like it. Quite right.
Well, for that to happen you need it seen by the same guy who sewn it last time, say, Peter G (not his real name), one of the best 3 – 4 sewing tailors in the world.
Hey, guess what? I saw Peter G yesterday [true story], and he’s currently busy sewing 15 suits for a certain New Yorker who is both very rich and famous. And after that he’s got another job of 12 suits for another hot shot of equal fame and social standing. And who knows? Maybe the Sultan of Brunei will fly into London for the day and order 30 suits, as he’s been known to do in the past. So our friend Peter G is busy for a while.
Mr Jones, you as a customer have two choices– wait for Peter G to fit you in or give Tom permission to give your job to another tailor.
What would be your answer?
By automatically shortening production times you are basically allowing the suit to be handled by different tailors, every time.
You think you get to cut coats for Mr Brunei Sultan Chappie, or let’s say Calvin Klein, Donald Trump, Graydon Carter [all 4 of these gentlemen have had coats made by tailors I know personally] etc, by having “a desire to artificially make the product seem special”?
No, sorry. This isn’t Designer Label. This isn’t Madison Avenue. This is a whole different league.
I really like that last bit. “No, sorry. This isn’t Designer Label. This isn’t Madison Avenue. This is a whole different league.” So nice to be part of a business where the usual cultural and marketing bullshit most of us have to hack through on a daily basis is completely irrelevant.
So you drum up more people interested in one of Tom’s suit. You don’t compromise on the cutting and sewing, etc. Instead of a waiting list of months, you have a waiting list of years (a bit like getting membership at the MCC?) — do you increase the price? Or maybe allow someone to bequeath their position in the queue to their children? How about a secondary market in queue places?
No. We don’t compromise on the sewing/making. If people want them fast and crap, they can go somewhere else.
We’re also pretty happy with the price structure– around 20 – 25% less than Savile Row norms. We’ree more interested in, wait for it… the relationship with the customer. For that, of course, is where all value ultimately orginates.
What am I not grasping here? I haven’t been following this thread overly closely, but I gather that Hugh believes he has discovered some sort of bullshit-free zone, a place where honest, authentic people such as the Sultan of Brunei can shop for quality menswear without having to deal with the indignities of Madison Avenue or designer labels.
Perhaps we should brush up on our econ 101, though, so we don’t embarrass ourselves the next time we’re chatting up Graydon Carter. All value certainly does not originate from “relationship with the customer.” (Do I smell something? Could it be, wait for it…marketing bullshit?) If we want to get technical, value is simply a customer’s willingness to pay a price for an item above the cost of production. Relationship *may* play a role in creating value, but it certainly isn’t any sort of ultimate source. I’ve gotten tons of value out of my off-the-rack Armani suit, because it’s worth more to me than I paid for it. Conversely, Tom’s suits actually have negative value for me, because the value I place on the increased quality doesn’t match up with the cost of the increased labor content (because I’m not the freaking Sultan of Brunei). No amount of bushwa about relationships is going to change that equation.
There also seems to be a great deal of confusion around this notion of “artificially” making a product seem special, as though there some meaningful distinction between natural specialness and artificial specialness. Tom’s suits are special because they are relatively rare. Period. Full stop. If Tom decided he wanted to take a month-long summer holiday with this family, would he be “artificially” restricting supply? If aliens gave us a technology that allowed us to magically create high-quality bespoke suites at no cost, do we suppose that prices for Tom’s suits would remain high, simply because they are so “naturally” special?
Sorry to be pedantic about this, but there’s just way too much silliness going on here. Tom is lucky to have possession of a scarce resource (tailoring talent) that a few people are willing to pay dearly for access to, and it’s entirely up to him to decide how much of that talent he wishes to mete out. The rest of us are lucky to have designer labels and Mens’ Warehouses. So let’s stop moaning about marketing bullshit, shall we?
P.S. Love the cartoons.
At what point do we get to tell you we don’t care to hear about Saville Row any more?
Just asking.
Any time you want, Nelbo…
BTW my traffic has doubled since I started writing about Savile Row.
Are your T-shirts from Tom as well?
(You know, the ones you are selling at the top of the page…)
Ok guys — what he’s really talking about is a small market where the producer has a top quality, custom made, personalized product. “it feels so good”
There is no question that a better fit, and better materials and the subtle knowledge required to do this make a better suit or a better anything thats being made.
Its a bullshit –free zone because the producer has more work than he can do, and he cares more about the quality of the finished product than he does about making more money.
In the race between “more income” and “I feel proud of my work” This guy is going for the second one. (ok, “the latter” )
Well good for him, I wish I could avail myself of his services. I love quality, nothing feels better, be it clothing, tools, furniture, houses, or what have you.
Your traffic has doubled because what you do is actually fucking great! Not trying to bust your chops, maybe a little, but just as other things become tired so might this. Maybe not.