December 29, 2004
advice for a young musician
Clementine just asked me the following:
I have a son who is 15. He is the closest thing to a rockstar that his school has. He sings in his own band, writes his own songs/music, (which aren’t too bad really) plays guitar and piano and has big-time Robert Plant rock star hair. He already has groupies.
But, he is really smart. 1380 on SAT and is only a sophomore. He wants to get out of our ‘red state’ and go to school somewhere like Boston…in a ‘blue state”. But he really really wants to make it in music.
How do I sort this all out and give him any advice? I want him to follow his dreams, but I know what you’ve been saying too…fine line between believing in yourself and believing your own b.s.
What would you say if he was your son???
I would give your son the same advice I would give any other young person, talented or not: Work your ass off. It’s a tough world out there.
Secondly, if I had a kid who was REALLY serious about music, there’s NO WAY I’d blow $100K on an out-of-state Yankee Liberal Arts education. I think the time would be better spent learning what the English call a “proper trade”- something steady to fall back on, that also pays well– that the market for is growing, not shrinking (i.e. something unlike most white collar jobs). Plumbing, carpentry etc etc.
Now if he intends to perhaps hang up his guitar one day and go get a “real job”, well, that’s different.
Sure, I think you’re better off being 22 years old with a B.A. than without one. But I’m not sure a fancy-schmancy out-of-state college degree is necessarily worth the extra money, for what you get.
Also, I’m not sure how many “real jobs” are going to be around in 10 years (a lot less than there are now, that’s for damn sure). And the ones that are left are going to be REALLY overcrowded with cheap and deperate young people willing to take them for a lot less money than they would be today. I think being a plumber in many ways is a better bet.
Anybody got any other advice? Seriously, please leave something in the comments.
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While his talent and hard work may take him far in the music world, he needs to realize that we live in a world of probabilities. While I would encourage him to follow his dreams, he also needs a hedge, as who can predict the future? I think it is refferred to here as sex and cash.
I majored in music 30 years ago, and while it is still an enjoyable hobby, I sublimated those creative drives and learned computer programming in a self-taught fashion. I have a decent enough job, and am raising a family…I will say that having a BA opened more doors job wise than not having one (unemployment among college grads is what…1 – 2%?), but majoring in music may not be the way to go.….good luck.
I agree with your advice (though feel differently about the nature of future markets).
Being success in the music industry can be brutally hard but one thing I see over and over again is musicans, promoters, and related people, lack basic economic and business sense. I fully recommend business and public speaking courses with a strong foundation of history, musical and otherwise. The music business is no different than being a sales person in many ways, you have to be able to connect with people in very short windows of time. Being well read with multiple interests helps in this.
The music industry is only partially about music. Some would say it is has little to do with music, but that is a bit cynical and doesn’t describe the vast number of people who do truly care about music. Understand that preception, relationships, and trends are the waves that can sweep you up or under depending on how you deal with them.
Chances are that even moderate success won’t pay all the bills so having a trade to cover the lean times is most useful. Having a skill in an flexible industry is most useful having to deal with tours, playing late on week days, etc.
In the end, I think the same advice goes for the rock star kid as the high school star sports athlete. The chances of hitting it big is very, very small. Work hard, but make sure you are well prepared for whatever comes your way.
In the end, music can last a lifetime, even if the attention does not.
Hugh
Who do you know in the music or art world got there by going to school? Real artists have mentors and work at it. Most of all they do it.
This is not only my opinion but what I have seen happen for my son James.
My son James aged 24 is a web artist. Now he is at the top of his game He left regular school at 14 and went to an art school that taught nothing else. This provided a strong foundation in skills.
But where he really learnt was from his community online. He was very disciplined and refused to take jobs but focused on art.
He only worked on art. Greatvmusicians surely only play music
What a great question.
First thought: this youngster is 15. Remember 15? I didn’t think so. What you thought you absolutely had to do at 15 is not likely to be what you ended up doing at 25, or 35, or 45, or, in my case 55.
So, I’d suggest one word, a la The Graduate: “options.” Get as many stock options as you possibly.…no, no, that’s not what I mean. What I mean is, create a platform that provides you with as many options as possible. That probably involves school of some kind. I agree with Hugh that the jobs that will be available when a 15 year-old is 25 are likely to be pretty different than the ones that exist today, but they’re still going to be filled by people (going out on a limb, here), and those people are probably going to be ones who know how to connect with others, help create great ideas, have a full suite of technical and non-technical skills, and so on.
That might feel a little wimpy, but it’s one of those recommendations that grows on you over time.
Finally. Ever been to Greenwich Village? Even seen how many bars there are there? Even spent a night watching the bands in those bars? And that’s what big time success in the music business looks like.
I have an Ivy League professional degree, and good-quality graduate humanities degree.
I agree emphatically with Hugh about save the $100K. The degrees have turned out the most useful for high-level social chit chat, and writing a literate blog. The payoff of an education is application, confidence, common sense, integrity. Those are better learned at home.
I’ve taught in community colleges, and think there is a good payoff there of value for money, as well as an array of vocational possibilities from whose teachers a student can learn a lot about “backup skills.“
I think the trick is in selecting the “back-up/grounding” curriculum *with* him. It will depend on the boy whether plumbing, cyberskills, an associate degree in business, drafting, etc. are most likely to fit. Also, you will want to encourage a life design that makes room for the music and the “back-up;” he’ll be too unhappy without the music, needs time to evaluate that for himself. He’ll always love it, its place in his life will become clear if he has options. However, a big-deal BA or BS is not that valuable these days, and doesn’t really provide an “option” as all sorts of thinking and calculating and computing jobs go overseas. And the more fashionable schools are hotbeds of drugs, one-upmanship, and worse a la Tom Wolfe’s newest.
I’m a career and life coach and would be glad to discuss this a little more by e-mail with Clementine to see if there’s anything I could add.
Wow — what a question to be posed. It’s a tough one to respond to even with my years of working directly with young people…
For me it’s about balance (as most things are) — the young man is obviously an intelligent individual, a side that needs to be encouraged and nurtured, directly juxtaposing this is his passion for music and performing, which also needs to be sustained as it sounds like it brings him (and many others) happiness and joy.
My advice is to nurture his passion and intellect by encouraging him to find some direct experience (in both areas). Dreams are often never attained fully due to the lack of understanding of what it takes to make them real. Also, people are held back by what they don
Oh wow, I just think this is one of the hardest things we have to do as parents. My simple answer (and I have a 13 year-old son) is that my job is to be there to give unconditional support to what the kid needs and wants to do today. And the real hard shit is that he might change his mind and chuck it all in for something else tomorrow — but it’s his life, not mine.
PS — I think the key word that’s been missed here is “groupies”. There is only one decision criterion for teenage boys — “Does it get me closer to getting laid?”
That really does sound like me when I was 15. I took a year off after high school, then started college as a Music Industry student. I am no longer in that field nor do I even have a band, but I have seen the best musicians in the world fade before anyone ever knew about them and it is always because of the lack of business sense. An education is the most powerful tool a person can have if they know how to wield it. This young man probably can do more with his education and talent than most others could do with either, he owes it to himself, his future, and the future of those he’ll work (and play) with to get an education that will help him chart his path as well as help him reach his goals.
Intelligence without a goal goes nowhere. Music is his passion and to ignore that would be the worst thing he could do.
Damn, I meant to mention the “groupie” part, too…that really does change everything, n’est pas?
Thirty years ago, I didn’t attend college because I wanted to be a cartoonist or a musician, and I didn’t think college was necessary to do either of those. Today I regret that choice. It doesn’t really matter where your son gets the degree — a $5,000-a-year public university is just as valid as a $40,000-a-year private college. The thing to keep in mind is that his dream today might become his hobby tomorrow. Making a decent living as a musician is tough, if not impossible. But it’s possible to combine a passion with a paycheck: a musician could be gainfully employed as a recording engineer, a salesman at a music store, or a sound system consultant to name just a few. So keep supporting his love of music. Just try and guide him to find practical outlets for his musical skills that can lead to a steady income — just in case.
i too have a creative 15yr old son, though his passion is drawing anime & computer graphics — wants to study in japan at some point…
but he also wants to finish high school @ home, w/ his friends and family — he knows you can’t get those years back…
once you leave you’re out in the real world, and as hugh mentioned it’s tough and will treat you as such…
help him look for creative musical outlets locally, there are aspects of red and blue in every city, county, state and region — simply take the time to seek them out…
finally, have him try out podcasting, some of the best are musical in nature — it will allow him to stretch and broaden his horizons w/in the comfort zone of a loving household — but will also give him the potential of sharing his talent on a global stage…
point him to both http://ipodder.org & http://www.podcastalley.com as good places to start…
good luck
Music isn’t just music. It’s a an art but it
My two cents:
I agree with several of the posters that learning a reliable trade is the way to go. The best trade for your son would be one that let him be involved with music while on the job; a.k.a. a trade in the music industry. He wouldn’t want to be a plumber, because there’s not much access to music or musicians in the basement of some guys house. If he were surrounded by musicians every day and getting paid for it, however, he might just feel like he never works a day in his life. His job could be a channel to help him get closer to his passion, which is what this blog talks all about.
I have a Masters degree from a top Ivy league school, something I did before really giving any thought to where I wanted to go in life. I followed the adage “it’s the best thing because it gives me the most options.” Well, that may be true but now that I know what those options are I don’t want them.
So what exactly do I get? My father was speaking to a financial planner friend of his who makes $600,000 a year (and has to wear a mouthguard at night to stop himself from grinding his teeth) about helping me get a job. He asked him “could he get a job as a stock analyst?” His friend replied “oh no, they only recruit people from Ivy league schools.” My father then remembered to tell him I had that degree, and the friend said he could indeed help me.
I went to his office to talk to him, and here’s a summary of what he told me:
1. Expect to work 14 hour days for the first 2 – 4 years. After that *maybe* you’ll start making money.
2. Expect to work 12 hour days after that.
3. There are a hundred assholes with Ivy league degrees who want your job and won’t mind working those hours, so if you screw up once you’re out.
There are a bunch of doors that only open up when you have good credentials, such as management consultant, CFO, CEO, stock analyst, hedge-fund manager. They pay ungodly amounts of money, but you without fail have to trade your life for that money. If you’re not willing to put the time in, someone else with no aspirations other than money and power will.
To end this story, I discovered that I have the soul of an artist and don’t want to lead a life where I can’t spend time being artistic. So those jobs are out — and I’m left vying for jobs where they don’t really care where my degree is from. Not that it doesn’t help, but it’s not a free pass like it would have been.
My “craft” is programming, something i enjoy doing and can do artistically (I write beautiful code. It also gives me the time to pursue my other passions: martial arts, music, and dance. It’s not a perfect fit, but I’m happy for now and making good money. And I always have the option of running away and becoming an acupuncturist.
My final piece of advice is to let your son read all of the above posts instead of trying to distill it down and teach it to him. You should key him in to the fact that you don’t know enough to give him advice and probably nobody does, but he should listen to as many opinions as possible.
I don’t have a son so please treat this comment with appropriately small respect.
I think advice is over-rated. There’s a snappy quote somewhere that says advice is usually a recirculated form of things we regret. Instead of owning our experience, advice allows us to drop it on someone else. Like we know what’ll work for them based on our own… er success?
And many people, probably especially teenage boys, don’t like taking advice. They probably haven’t asked for it. (And see, even I am now generalising… that’s the trouble with advice!)
Our pasts are not much of a guide to our own futures, still less anyone else’s.
If I pause to reflect, I’d prefer to trust that people are basiscally smart and can make their own choices and decisions. So I’d go along with Lloyd and try to support him in what he wants now.
I also notice how angst-filled this discussion is. Does the guy need more angst in his life right now?
Maybe, Johnnie… I still wouldn’t blow $100K on an out-of-state Yankee Liberal Arts education, not if there was a perfectly good state university down the road.
The social advantages of attending a small, private New England college just aren’t what they were 25 years ago.
And yeah, I would recommend any plan designed to maximise “options” at age 25. And groupies
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I have a son (5) and two daughters (2 1/2). There’s plenty of dream-squashing ahead of them, the US educational system starts very early.
I want my kids to be able to dream and express their dreams without anyone there to say ‘yes, BUT…‘
Just tell the boy to have his dreams. Without dreams we wouldn’t have art. We’d all be stuck in cubicles (wait…).
If the boy was ‘raised right’ he can have his dreams but will also understand (without any grown-up having to pound it into his head) that he needs to figure out a way to accomplish his dreams. That it isn’t going to be ‘get on a bus, hang out at CBGBs, get a recording contract and get rich!‘
just my two cents…
This may be a difficult question to answer at 15… hell, it’s a difficult question at any age… Just what is it about the idea of a career in music that attracts him? Is it the music for it’s own sake? The opportunity for self-expression? Is it being the centre of attraction? The groupies? Some of these attractions can find fulfilment in a whole range of futures — the more closely he (or anyone) can identify just what he’s seeking, the more likely he is to find it. (Remember the one about climbing the ladder only to find it was leaning against the wrong wall…)
If he wants to come to Boston, he should check out Berklee College of Music. He could get a music biz degree, while still performing, having best-in-the-world mentors, classmates from around the world, and get to live in a great (albeit expensive), blue-state city. Lots of venues for music. If it doesn’t work out, he can always switch out of that school, and hit one of the almost hundred colleges here, from vocational to Harvard… If it’s all about options, then Boston’s got many.
I was a similar young lad: decent SATs, played multiple instruments, we won the battle of the bands at our highschool… no Robert Plant hairdo though. Anyway, college was a big waste of time and money for someone who wants to play music. It’s just glorified highschool nowadays. I’m with Hugh, learn a trade and move to NY or LA and work at the music thing. Plus, a musician AND a carpenter…? The ladies won’t be able to resist him.
THIS IS GREAT! I really appreciate all the comments. I will let him read this and I know it will give him some great food for thought.…
He is interested in business, which sounds like its the right track to be smart in music from what a lot of folks have said…but I don’t want him to get a degree that he can’t essentially do anything with otherwise if the music doens’t work out. He’s also good at science and lots of other things. That’s why its so hard for me to advise him…and he did kind of open up and share the other night about his path. There’s a lot of pressure in school to ‘get a plan’ for college earlier these days. When I was his age I didn’t have a clue. Somehow I managed to make it to 40 with a lot of good in the past and as far as I can see in the future …but of course like any parent I want to help him have better.
He loves performing and getting the energy up in a group of people. I think thats why he likes his band that he is in. Of couse, he has big dreams of money, fame and all that goes with it. And at such a young age part of me says, ‘well why not?’ if youre gonna dream, dream big. But then I know all about late night rock and roll shows and the kind of people who are out and whats going on. Some great wonderful people.…some people who would eat you alive. Exciting, yet scary.
As far as getting laid.…it might be on his mind, but I don’t think he’d admit it to me. So far the girls seem after him more than he is after them.
From what I can tell, the reason he’s attracted to Boston is the opportunity for more diversity…in people, culture, food, etc. We live in a pretty small mountain town and there’s not a lot going on … its beautiful, but can be boring at times. And small town attitudes can be frustrating. Plus, there was a time I traveled with my job more, and have been to a lot of major cities. I liked Boston a lot, and I’m sure he’s picked up on that.
Again.…A big thank you for all this discussion.
I’ll second ~bc’s suggestion of going to Berklee. If he’s truly serious about music as a profession, he can’t go wrong. It’s not going to be an easy ride for him… if he’s not serious about working for his art and eventual trade, he’ll get eaten alive. Mind you, that’s often a better lesson to learn than success.
I have been thinking in a similar vein, I have a two year old and am weighing the proc and cons of public vs home schooling.
While I haven’t finished researching everything yet I have found a very good question: What do I want my child to know when they are 18?
I want them to know not only how to read and write but how to speak in public and present their ideas to a group.
Not just to be able to do basic arithmetic but to know how to use checking, savings, loans, credit cards and mortgages.
To understand how a business works, with leadership, management, sales, accounting and engineering.
And given the disaster in the Indian Ocean, how to react to and help people during and after a disaster.
How to manage their own health.
To know the history that has made the world the way it is, not just isolated names, dates and places.
Dreaming big is a good thing, but have a Plan B and Plan C in case you miss the stars and hit the moon or if the rocketship blows up on the launch pad due to no fault of your own.
Parents walk a fine balance between serving as reality check and avoiding killing their children’s dreams. My 18-year old son is in the recording studio this week. He’s a smart, but half-hearted college freshman. We hope he sticks with college because his (or anyone else’s) chances of becoming a rock star are so slim. And even then, will he really enjoy the touring lifestyle? What exactly is it about music that appeals to him? The message? The performance? The playing for playing’s sake? These are qustions we ask him to ponder.
But we also encourage him to get out and find gigs and haul his equipment around and play in dives and get ripped off by club owners and experience the “glamour” of rock first hand. It will either kill his enthusiasm or steel his resolve. Either way it’s good.
Better that than to force a decision away from it only for him to have a nasty mid-life crisis in his 40’s and wonder what would have happened had he pursued his dream. So, mostly we talk about the need to have a good backup plan, and to be happy living simply and with little security, becasue that’s what he’ll need if he seriously pursues any kind of artistic endeavor as his sole (soul) career.
Does that help at all?
When you folks say “eaten alive”, what do you literally mean? I’m a 35 year old musician who is trying to figure out if I’ve been eaten alive, or if I’ve never gone to the picnic to begin with.
didn’t mick jagger go to london school of economics? i guess there is some logic there.
My partner’s a muscian. Started playing at 12, was in his first (of many) signed band at 16 and moved to LA from France at 19 as that was where it was all happening at the time. Had it been happening in Timbuctoo he would have moved there.
About 5 years ago he moved from doing solely bands to doing sessions and soundtrack work over the net. Never studied it in college although now in his spare (!) time he’s doing a degree course in music theory. Never stopped learning his subject. Never got stuck in a sound rut. This meant that he could make the transition from live playing to producing and writing easily when his priorities changed (i.e. he met me!) and he got sick of the touring/recording cycle. He still tours and travels to sessions in London and America but it’s when he wants to now rather than because he has to.
The advice I’d give (based on a birds eye view of the situation), I touched upon in the previous paragraph — never but never stop learning your subject. If your son is interested in becoming a professional musician then learn the recording techniques and software that are available whether that’s via a college course or just mucking about on his own. Not only will that save him a fortune when he comes to record his own demo (and can charge to record his friends) but it will mean that he will have something to move into when his priorities or fashion changes (after all today’s number 1 is tomorrow’s remix.) It also means that he will have a say in the recording of his work when he gets a deal rather than being at the mercy of a producer. As your son is quite young then maybe he could get a Saturday job or work experience at a local recording studio. This would bring him into contact with other musicians as well — contacts are very important.
Don’t be limited by one style — there is a tendency for pop/rock musicians especially only to concentrate on their style. Listen to everything — classical, jazz, pop, country, reggae everything and anything. You won’t like everything but it will all come in useful. Hear how it’s recorded, what instruments are used, how certain effects are obtained., the dynamics of the piece. Know the subject inside out. For example people rave about Picasso’s skewed perspective but they forget that he mastered traditional perspective first. You can’t disregard the rules until you know what they are.
Write your own material and copyright it! You get more royalties for writing and playing your own material. Its the stuff of legends that the guy who played the sax solo on Baker Street walked out with only
The best thing you can do for a kid in that situation is leave him or her alone. Any advice you give is only going to make things more difficult.
Let’s face it, as teenagers we are all faced with a choice.
On one hand you have the choice to do what everybody expects. Go to college and get a professional-level job of some kind. If you do this you will get money, a retirement account, a nice house, a nice car and if you really play the game right there are other bonus points available like country club membership.
On the other hand you can follow your heart. Become an artist, a musician, devote your life to a cause you believe in or something along those lines.
Now if you follow your heart the price attached to that choice is that you have to pretty much give up the whole idea of having a house in some yuppie paradise, driving a nice car and the odds of you seeing the inside of a country club without having to bus tables during your visit get pretty slim.
It’s not all cut-and-dried because there is a price attached to the professional life as well: You have to give up your dreams in one way or another.
In the end the decision really boils down to what those dreams are worth to you.
I made my choice when I was fifteen. I decided that I really did want to spend the rest of my life wandering around playing the banjo.
(Hey, don’t laugh just yet. I explain what led me to my decision here: http://funkyseagull.com/five/five-strings.htm#why)
I paid a high price for my decision that went beyond not driving a fancy car because the adults in my life went out of their way to inform me that I was a shiftless, lazy and doomed to failure. I mean, I was making this huge commitment knowing full well that it wasn’t going to be easy and these people kept jumping up and down shouting, “You’ll never do it!“
I’m just a few months shy of my thirty-fifth birthday now and I’ve actually managed to build a pretty nice life for myself. I’ve published three books in the past two years and in the process of doing that I wound up starting a happily successful little publishing company.
I’ll never be rich, but through my work I have managed to touch lives around the world. Maybe to some folks that isn’t quite the same as having a country club membership, but to me… well I can’t really put it into words. The comedy of it all is that people who used to tell me that I was making a bad choice twenty years ago see me and carry on about how well I’ve done for myself.
I just smile and tell them I couldn’t have done it without them.
–Patrick
Great! All these tidbits of advice and sharing of musicians/artists and friends/family of artists (and others) experiences IS a big help. I haven’t shared this with my son yet…I know it would help him to hear what others have experienced and know that theres a lot of paths to take and they all involve hard work, but I’m not quite sure how to approach him. I don’t want him to think I’m really worried about him — he already thinks I need to “chill” haha — Maybe this advice is all about helping me cope as a parent more than advice for him. I may cull out some of the parts that I think would really help him and share those.
As some of these comments have alluded to…some things just have to work themselves out as you go along growing up…other than working hard and not getting your ego in the mix in a bad way, life has to ‘just happen’ sometimes I suppose.
As far as ‘eaten alive’, I guess I mean that it is a tough world out there and some people will introduce you to situations that really won’t help you at all, but they really don’t give a damn. And some people intentionally want to bring you down…for a variety of reasons. I’ve tried to teach my son to care enough about himself not to fall into harms way, but I know some really nice people who do some really stupid things. I trust him though, and so far he seems to trust me and open up to me a lot too.
Its very positive for me to read these comments and see how others have the same questions and how some of you all have stayed true to your dreams and done just fine.
Thank You!!!
Clementine: well in that case, I guess I have been “eaten alive” a few times. It happens even when you’ve been warned, if you’re desperate for something to change, and it involves a lot of cognitive dissonance and pro-and-con weighing, both emotionally and rationally. Then the emotional side finds ways to bend the rational side just enough to suck you in.
In the end you stand up, shake it off, and hopefully learn a little. One advantage of not being famous (yet) is that the world isn’t keeping track of how stupid you’ve been.
Very well put AcouSvnt!
Reminds me of a Somerset Maughm quote that i think goes like this: “Excess on occasion can be exhilirating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit”.
(I’ve used that to make myself feel better after a particularly decadent evening — once or twice.)
In my junior year of h.s. a friend of mine moved to New York at age 16 to become an actress. It was her dream. We lossed touch after a couple of years but all these years later (about 20 years) she’s a star on a weekly drama series (CSI). I’ve seen her on numerous shows on her climb to where she is now (NYPD Blue, ER). The point is that few people know exactly what they want to do at such a young age. For him to know now is a good sign he’ll work hard to get there. A good college will always be there for him. He’ll always be smarter than most others and a few years of life experience as a freshman will only make him a better student if the music doesn’t work out. But remember Vanessa Carlton’s story is very similar to your son’s and her parents put her in a school that allowed her talents to flourish. Good Luck!
High school — any high school — is a very small pond. The Real World is a very big pond. Plenty of people, from athletes to software designers, discover that they aren’t as good (or motivated, which amounts to the same thing) as they thought they were once they get out there in the Real World and see how tough the competition is.
My advice would be to go to the best school you can (a) get into and (b) afford. If you really are a big fish, that’s the place to get discovered. If you’re not, that’s the place to get the kind of background that will give you alternatives.
Personally, I’m not doing what I thought I wanted when I was fifteen. But I’m doing what I want to do now, and that’s good enough for me.
Just wanted to let you all know in case you check back that last night we were having a fun, relaxed evening celebrating the end of exams and the beginning of the second semester, and I told my son about this.– That I has posted a request for advice and that several people shared advice and scenarios with me that were very interesting. He was glad that I’d sought input from a source that is pretty unbiased and honest. He said it showed that I really cared about him to admit that I don’t have all the answers, and would try to learn more to share with him. So I told him I would print out all the comments and he can read them this weekend.
with me…my father ( passed on 12 years ago) was a banjo lover and played for years. He wasn’t a great musician, but he did make an impact on us.…like your site says. I have his banjo and have wanted to learn to play a little, so your site is great for me.
and a note to Patrick– your banjo ‘story’ and website really hit a note (no pun intended
I’ll post a comment next week of what my son thought of all the advice after he reads it in case anyone is interested.
Hell, I’ve got an MBA from a respected school and 15 years experience running my own business – a film/video post-production house. The bulk of my business was tied to marketing and advertising. I sold the business in 2000, just when the recession was raising its ugly head and put the brakes on the economy. Yes, I’m a “creative” and thought that with my experience, I’d have no problem starting a new career. Shit, was I wrong!
Look, there are thousands of folks out there like me; overeducated, middle aged – and unemployed. Few companies are willing to hire a graying, forty-something MBA with a wife and kids (i.e. commitments) when a freshly minted twenty-something MBA with no personal life will work 1oo hours a week and travel all over the country.
Now, I’m looking around and I see skilled trades people pulling down serious money – deep into six figures – cabinet makers, machinists, carpenters, mechanics. MBA’s are a dime a dozen. Try finding a guy that will fix your car or rework your plumbing; you’ll pay out the ass.
A real world example: my friend is a middle-aged, highly skilled programmer with a masters degree. He lost his highly-paid job with a Fortune 500 and was unemployed for well over a year. Now, he owns a small business that cleans out septic tanks. He makes more than he ever did in corporate America.
These comments/stories shared have been so interesting to read. I printed out what advice had been given up til friday and my son read it this weekend. He was impressed with the quantity and thought that went into this. He didn’t make a lot of remarks on it to me, but I could tell that it gave him some good food for thought. Perhaps hearing that it’s all hard work was not exactly what he wants to hear…but it will have more impact coming from a format like this than it would from me.…and it is the truth.
I have thought about getting him to learn a ‘skill or trade’ rather than getting a degree that is actually hard to “do something’ with. I believe in Europe its not seen the same way to go to a technical or trade school like it is here. Its almost like we frown upon the trades and people with those kinds of educations aren’t as valued. That is until you need a plumber and get the bill.…like keith referred to. Seems like doctors are the one profession that actually ‘cash in’ on the expensive educations that they get…maybe lawyers too. I doubt my son would be interested in either one of those…but like some of you have said, they’ll be a lot of changes in him in the future.
oh, and his music is rock n roll, but its not like the mainstream rock that i’m hearing these days on the radio…its got a lot of blues and even country/celtic influence. We’ve listened to everything as he has been growing up. I’ve introduced him to some fairly obscure artists and small town ‘local’ bands too.
anyway… THANKS again for all this dialog. It has been a big help to me. Thanks for having this site Hugh!!
Ive been in many parts of the music biz. I have toured as part of the production team and I have toured as a bass player in a band with a record deal. Id have to say this…“work your ass off” is right. If youre gonna make it in entertainment you always have to be on your toes and your band has to be your life. You have to promote your band EVERYDAY to EVERYONE. But its worth it if you do it right. But its a very bumpy road and I feel lucky I know a trade and could always get work if i needed. So take that for what its worth.
When I was 8 years old, I announced to my mother that I had figured out what I wanted to be when I grew up: a singer. Her response? “Over my dead body.” It was curse I carried with me until she died. I was 36. That’s when I started doing music again. I started taking conga drumming lessons with my husband, and within a short time, we started writing our first book: Conga Drumming – A Beginner’s Guide to Playing with Time. A few years later, I sang on an album – the great thrill of my life. Our 7-year-old daughter was on it, too. It felt incredibly healing to take back my dream and invite my own daughter to dream along with me.
There is nothing like passion. Your son can always get a job. He’s obviously smart as hell. But he will not always be young, fit, healthy-minded, idealistic about what is possible for him to do in the world. My advice – as a child who had to put her dreams on hold, and as someone who has a daughter very much like your son – is to encourage him to go for it. The world will teach him whatever lessons he needs to learn. But to love something? That’s what every parent should wish for for her child.
P.S. Our daughter wants to be a Broadway star. With all her smarts and talents, and with all I know about the harshness of the world of theater, I wish she loved something else. But … she loves what she loves, and I want to support her to pursue her dreams. I have faith that she will find her own way.
This is what I’d say. If you want to make it in pop music, it’s a young person’s game. I don’t think a little college can hurt you, but if you don’t make something happen before 30, the odds are really against you. Conversely, I’ve seen many of my musician friends go back to school after 30 and transition smoothly into a new career.
One of the worst things you can do for a kid who really wants to be a musician is to try and shield them from failure and rejection. If one can’t handle these two things, they’ll never make it very far. They also won’t learn the things they need to learn to be successful.
Moreover, most of the people I know who really went for it and didn’t get where they wanted to go at least got clarity in the process (I know a lot of these people). They don’t ever have to wonder about what might have been. They know they did their best, and they have a concrete result to engage with. These people seem much more balanced as they move on with their lives. It’s the people who never did that who are filled with wondering.
So what would I do if I was your son? I’d keep my studies up through high school and take the idea of college seriously. Then I’d apply to a mix of colleges. Maybe I would apply to the Berklee School in Boston, although I think it’s kind of expensive and kind of a mixed bag.
Nevertheless, Boston has a good music scene, and as big city’s go it’s perhaps a bit more manageable for youngsters than some others, because it’s such a big college town. It’s kind of a city with training wheels.
I’d also look at schools like Evergreen State U up in Olympia, WA. The guy who created the Simpsons went here, as did a founder of Sub Pop Records, Linda Berry, and a bunch of other creative folks. Very freewheeling, groovy liberal arts atmosphere. But it’s a state school, so the price isn’t so high. Olympia has a very well respected local indie rock scene. It’s also an hour from Seattle, which has an even bigger scene. So if your son wants to get familiar with Seattle, it will be easy to do.
Antioch College in Ohio is a similar vibe, but it’s private and more expensive. It’s also out in the middle of nowhere, but it’s less than an hour from two big cities.
The Residential College of the University of MIchigan is kind of similar, but it has the advantage of being housed within one of the best public universities in the country. This is a great place to go to school for someone like your son who is both smart and creative (I can speak from personal experience, it’s where I went). There will be lots of really smart and creative people there. I’ve never met more broad interdiscplinary people than in the RC
Ann Arbor is also a big enough town to have a music scene, so he can keep playing. It’s also near to Detroit and not so far from Chicago. He’ll also meat a lot of people from Chicago, NYC, Boston, etc. The RC is crawling with them.
Another benefit of the three programs above is that none of them give out letter grades (at least not in the first year or two). So if you get distracted with outside matters and don’t quite bring it in classroom, the effects are a little more muted (perhaps a consideration for someone who may be dropping out after a year).
Reed College in Portland is another private school to consider. Similar vibe. Near a city with a good music scene. This is a pretty competitive school though. From what I understand, people study hard and party hard.
University of Texas in Austin is another place to consider. You’d be going maybe more for the town than for the school. But that’s not a bad music scene either and a good place to start out.
What I’d tell your son is to go to college for a year and see how it feels. If he likes it, he should stay. If he feels like it has nothing to do with his ambitions as a musician, he should drop out. If he’s already in or near a city, he’ll have a leg up to transition into a shitty job and the reality of trying to make it as a musician.
If you have the money to help him out with school, tell him you’ll put that money aside. If he decides he wants to go back to school later, you’ll help him out then if you can. Or tell him you’ll take that same money and help him out with his music career and he’ll be on his own later if he wants to go back to school.
In the former case, I wouldn’t give him too much cash at first. He should founder around and learn how to boostrap on a low budget. It’s one thing to maybe help him buy an instrument or even loan/give a couple of grand to record a record. But don’t blow 20 grand on the kid in his first year out. It’s like any other business. If you buy the expensive copy machine before you know whether you’ll need it, you’re shooting yourself in the foot, because once you realize you don’t need it, you’ll never be able to get you money out of it.
I do think that a lot of good growth stuff happens in college, especially the first year. It’s good to get a few of those skills, learn a little bit about being on your own in a somewhat controlled environment. After the first year, those lessons start to diminish (although there are a lot of other great things about conitnuing college and finishing it).
The important thing here is to not set up a situation with your son where he feels like it’s either start/finish college now or never do it. College will always be there for people who really want it. Music career is a little more like being a basketball player. It may not always be there if you don’t go for it young.
Stumbled upon this conversation via the Gurteen Knowledge-Letter and an on-going professional R&D project to help architects develop/design successful learning environments for the future.
Brilliant conversation to eavesdrop upon…thank you. Learning a great deal along the way.
In 2 (maybe 3) words, this is what immediately lept into my mind as I was listening to the many layers of your questions and responses: Empowerment and Intuition.
One way or another, the ‘point’ of education is a) to ‘empower’ an individual to make choices and b) to develop the ‘intuition’ to make them in a way that they can accept the beauty and frustration of the consequences.
I’ll concede (as an ex-teacher of more than 10 years working directly with adolescent learners) that there is a tertiary point in c) possessing enough collective facts/ideas/premises/questions that one’s community/society possesses so you can ‘interact’ and ‘listen’ with a fair degree of logic ain’t such a bad thing either. (Note: enforcing ‘memorization’ in order to succeed in ‘tests’ is laughable and naive, at best, in a world of 21st century technology and knowledge worker environments and the impossibility of any one person ‘knowing all that they need to know in their chosen profession or creative domain’…but it does make “Leave it to Beaver” re-runs more adorable. The 1800’s need to ‘train’ industrial age workers and the 1700’s need to ‘train’ good voters who wouldn’t revolt or drink at the polls is also a bit of an anachronism, too. The future demands more, whether you’re a struggling artist, a successful music industry rep, or the guy behind the guy who acts as a ‘patron’ to facilitate the success of those who struggle and represent, so to speak. The future demands, as many of you have stated, that you do the hard work necessary to get there and that you create your own niche — i.e. copyright or become otherwise indespensible — so that your ‘value’ is commensurate with your efforts. The future is an invitation that offers no sympathy!)
I agree with Johnnie Moore in this blog who said: “advice is over-rated.” At least for the kid receiving it. They’re not wired to act upon it, even if they ‘hear’ it. Not yet. Not until they develop their own life battle scars. However, the advice is incredibly good for the million teachers (mentors/parents, etc.) of that one kid who truly want to know that they are doing ‘enough’ to support and protect. The truth is yes, you’re doing enough…but you can never fully protect. All you can do is set the stage, put the kid of creative potential in a position to respond in appropriate ways and ‘handle’ the consequences with joy and maturity.
The past demanded that we repeat what our elders did. The future says that our elders need to learn from the intution of adaptation that our kids embrace naturally. If you want to read, consider reading the 1st chapter of Douglas Rushkoff’s ’96 text, “Playing the Future: what we can learn from digital kids” to better sense how kids learn ‘for the future’ rather than how we teach ‘from the past’. A provocative text, at worst. A hell of a guide to the future of learning and doing, at best.
Here are a few things that drive my interest in this conversation…followed by a number of things that impress me about what has already been shared by all of you:
Me: I work with ‘school designers’ in a successful architecture/construction-management firm that focuses on public schools and their core business being successful by virtue of our combined work. The opportunity to join this firm and ‘do this work’ came after 15 years working directly with kids/teachers, 10 as a classroom teacher — English, History, Design, Architecture — and coach and experiential education leader, and eventually seeing a natural link with the work of school designers. Architecture was my curiosity, but not my greatest offering/skill-set (now that I’m really honest with myself, and that’s cool, too). Teaching was the most natural skill I had but always felt limited in terms of the pressure to be ‘on stage’ (a la “Dead Poets Society”) and the need to validate ‘grading for grading’s sake’ when what I was passionate about was helping kids ask great questions and search for the answers on their own times. Along the way, some very bright and passionate folks I knew were designing/opening their own schools for kids very much like those you are describing…as well as those who could be, but didn’t have the resources or support to even get to that point of choice. Suddenly, I was functioning as a ‘school designer’ without degree or experience. The next 4 years were spent developing enough of both to ‘get in the door’ and now I act as a facilitator for school districts and architects who are deeply invested in the successful learning environments of the future. Finally, my own career arc is direct proof of what many of you know intuitively and have expressed here:
Work hard, value the journey, find a customized niche of your own and figure out it’s ‘value’ to others, and never stop learning, coupled with tying it to shared values of others…rather than just pick dream vs. job.
What I value in what this blog conversation has offered is as follows (an incomplete list):
1. The original question by Clementine. Just having a parent ask the qeustion is the greatest thing that 15 year old can receive. The rest will take care of itself.
2. Hugh’s first response: “Work your ass off. It’s a tough world out there.” Do whatever it takes to embrace this…and to have as much fun exploring it as possible, would be the only thing I’d add. Enjoying a complicated world isn’t any more difficult than being frustrated by it; it simply demands the choice to see it as valuable.
3. Hugh’s comments about ‘real jobs’ in the future. The jobs-of-impact will require more nimble skills and networking; but the glut of jobs will be glorified ‘Starbuckian’ positions where we simply maintain technology on some level or another.
4. Tom’s comments re: “he also needs a hedge” — bravo.
5. BP’s comments re: “recommend business and public speaking courses with a strong foundation…” and “…connect with people in avery short windows of time”. Furthermore, “Understand that preception, relationships, and trends are teh waves that can sweep you up or under depending on how you deal with them.” This is the manna from the heavens in the business world! In other words, what are the relationship skills in an emerging-trend future?
6. Robert Paterson’s comments re: “Real artists have mentors and work at it.” Brilliant!
7. Tom G’s comments re: “…create a platform that provides you with as many options as possible.” And that jobs of the future will be filled by those who “know how to connect with others.” Yes, yes, yes!
8. AH’s comments re: “The payoff of an education is application, confidence, common sense, integrity.” Wherever that happens, in my opinion. And I loved his “…will want to encourage a life design”. If we dumped 99.9% of what schools focus upon, but instead approached every 9th grader with developing an adaptable “life design” (or even a personal “business plan” to ‘pitch’ to ‘investors’), we’d have kids hungry to learn, and teachers in position to truly mentor them. But I digress…
9. DK’s comments re: “…it’s about balance…encouraged and nurtured…needs to be sustained…” True.
10. SirShannon’s comments re: “…it is always because of a lack of business sense. An education is the most powerful tool…” Business, in my vision, has very little to do with money/title, and everything to do with building networks of influence/impact.
11. Cipheroid’s comments re: “…it’s possible to combine a passion with a paycheck.” Is there any other choice for an intelligent person to make?
12. Bill’s comments re: “Open your mind. Expand your view of what you think making music is and what creativity is.” Kids know intutitively that the past is not the point, but lack the language/research skills to figure out what the future will demand. Your comment is key to that paradox. Also valued the “careers evolve” comment.
13. Kevin’s comments re: “…it’s the best thing because it gives me the most options” but not in the anti-Ivy League way. I have an Ivy League professional degree. I also have a state-university degree. And I have lived a bit of life along the way. The ‘degree’ or school is never the point. Using all of your resources and networks to achieve your desired learning and experience is the only validation of ‘school’ or contacts. Kevin’s underlying premise is very true, however.
14. JM’s comments: “Our pasts are not much of a guide to our futures, still less anyone else’s.” As an ex-teacher, I laughed at this…and agreed.
15. Hugh’s response: “I would recommend any plan designed to maximise ‘options’”.
16. Kevin L’s comments re: the entire “7 steps” and the idea that he should set up “a mentor group or mastermind group.” And “be a student of success.“
17. David’s comment re: “There’s plenty of dream-squashing ahead of them, the US educational system starts very early.” Picasso speaks of adults struggling to regain what child artists do intuitively. Buckminster Fuller, who at 8 years of age discovered the engineering leap to create the dome — most effective/efficient use of space and that which should be of impact to the entire globe — said that ‘school’ is geared towards subduing what kids can already do. I’d only add that adulthood seems to be a race to recapture what we have somehow decided to bury ages before.
18. BC’s comments re: “Just what is it about the idea of a career in music that attracts him?” If more teachers and parents would simply ask such a question and truly listen without their own biases or need to control, the quantity of kids seeking adult mentors would skyrocket.
And BC’s comments about the range of options in Boston. Harvard or MIT for architecture…vs. Boston Architecture Center? Better than choosing one over the other, how about all of the above in a customized package put together by a resourceful learner!!! Same w/ Berkeley vs. playing in the ‘T’ for ‘real ‘audiences.
19. Clemintine’s response re: “…a lot of pressure in school to ‘get a plan’ for college earlier these days.” I agree. I did admissions at an ‘elite’ private school in Boston…and it starts at the elementary level…sadly. But, the ‘escape hatch’ is a parent who understands that college is a ‘tool’ or a ‘medium’ to ‘get there’ rather than the ‘destination’ itself. Have your kid get into as many schools as possible but NOT GO at 18…but work, volunteer, travel, learn independently, and live for 1 – 2 years (or more) first, then go to college when they can a) pay for it (or contribute) and b) understand why it’s valuable to them. Going as a default at 18 because HS is over is foolish beyond words…and the greatest financial mistake most families make with the right intentions. If you must go right away, community college for 2 years as someone said in this blog is the appropriate response.
20. Stephan F’s comments/questions re: “What do I want my child to know when they are 18?” Every parent would be served by hearing these and truly listening to their own hearts and their child’s ultimate responses/choices.
21. Gale’s comments re: “Parents [and teachers, I’d add], walk a fine balance between serving as a reality check and avoiding killing their children’s dreams.” Amen.
22. HC’s comments re: 1. “Never stopped learning his subject.” I.E. The journey is the destination, and those the run industries or are sought after for their creative skills/products are those who forever keep learning…because they demand it of themselves. The rest are ‘workers’ who go to ‘jobs’ and wonder why they only get 2 weeks a year off and wait for retirement to finally live. Sadly, most are good people who weren’t empowered…and thought that school = learning. Your comments were dead-on.
Also appreciated the comment about Picasso — same with ee cummings (the poet who destroyed all ‘rules’). Both were classically trained. Both knew the rules. Both knew how to deconstruct and rebuild. Those who just follow instinct without knowing traditions will at best achieve limited impact. Those who synthesize the rules with intuition create remarkable end-products and lives.
24. HC’s comments re: the girl: “…someone who has followed their dream has fallen for her as hard as she fell for him.” What a wonderful sentiment. People fall in love with people who are in love with life. Simple. True.
25. Patrick’s comments re: “…as teenagers, we are all faced with a choice.” And teenagers today have more choices and more knowledge (ironically) than in any past generation…but are somehow told that they need to face ‘responsiblities’ as the past dictated, whereas what they need is to be empowered to be ‘response-able’ and ‘responsive’ in an ever-changing world. Schools need to provide this. Parents need to support this. And every adult needs to embrace this. Kids will go there whether we are ready or not.
26. Also appreciated Patricks comments re: “In the end the decision really boils down to what those dreams are worth to you.” Tattoo this on all of our foreheads and kids will learn from adults. Don’t accept this, and kids will learn from each other only. And the idea that “…tell them I couldn’t have done it without [the bad choice twenty years ago].” Me, too.
27. And endless more…
Much as a single query created an extraordinary conversation of vibrant folks like yourselves, I’m also seeking curious and passionate individuals and organizations that can help me close in on the “Ideal Classroom” and the “Ideal learning environment of the future”…as a school designer and an architect must embrace. Any ideas, I’d welcome them. Any feedback, welcome that as well.
Cheers, Christian Long (clong@huckabee-inc.com)