Comments on: power http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/ "cartoons drawn on the back of business cards" Wed, 23 May 2012 20:07:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: john http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3164 john Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:08:22 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3164 Interesting discussion, but I think what clients want is the magic - which may or may not consolidate/establish their power/reputation. Interesting discussion, but I think what clients want is the magic — which may or may not consolidate/establish their power/reputation.

]]> By: hugh macleod http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3163 hugh macleod Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:25:14 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3163 "The only folks who seem to relish accumulating power for its own sake are the Hitler-Kim Il-Sung-Khamenei types." And Bloggers- we're all little dictators at heart etc. “The only folks who seem to relish accumulating power for its own sake are the Hitler-Kim Il-Sung-Khamenei types.“
And Bloggers– we’re all little dictators at heart etc.

]]> By: Jeremy http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3162 Jeremy Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:01:20 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3162 MarkN, I just reread your response. If you were answering my question at the end - you were right. I thought you were responding to the comments of "the second guy" and so wrote a response above. Blogs ... so hard to hear figure who's really saying what. Cheers. MarkN, I just reread your response. If you were answering my question at the end — you were right.
I thought you were responding to the comments of “the second guy” and so wrote a response above.
Blogs … so hard to hear figure who’s really saying what.
Cheers.

]]> By: Nathan Dornbrook http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3161 Nathan Dornbrook Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:00:06 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3161 Neo-classical economics also assumes that people have unlimited wants. That if something is a good, the quantity demanded will be infinite as the price goes to zero. This isn't always true, as the good folks over at the Santa Fe institute have shown. I think that power is better modeled using what the Santa Fe Institute is teaching than it is by using what the Neo-Classicists would have us assume. Maybe your client believes his customers only want a limited amount of power. They know when they've got too much and do what they can to shed it. Maybe they're perfectly comfortable having the power to choose the colour of their shoes, say, but not with being responsible for the profitability of the technology division of a high street bank, even though that comes with hiring and firing power - because they don't want the hassle. Many people are sophisticated consumers of power and know their limits. The only folks who seem to relish accumulating power for its own sake are the Hitler-Kim Il-Sung-Khamenei types. If you were to propose giving a sophisticated consumer of power an arbitrary amount of power without explaining how it solves a problem that they've got, they'll stop the conversation - hang up the phone, change the channel, turn the page, twist the dial, click on something else. I'd be uncomfortable discussing power with someone who wanted to sell me something, too. I want to hear a concise solution to my problem. Sometimes, I need a hand constructing a concise statement of my problem first. Neo-classical economics also assumes that people have unlimited wants. That if something is a good, the quantity demanded will be infinite as the price goes to zero.
This isn’t always true, as the good folks over at the Santa Fe institute have shown. I think that power is better modeled using what the Santa Fe Institute is teaching than it is by using what the Neo-Classicists would have us assume.
Maybe your client believes his customers only want a limited amount of power.
They know when they’ve got too much and do what they can to shed it. Maybe they’re perfectly comfortable having the power to choose the colour of their shoes, say, but not with being responsible for the profitability of the technology division of a high street bank, even though that comes with hiring and firing power — because they don’t want the hassle. Many people are sophisticated consumers of power and know their limits.
The only folks who seem to relish accumulating power for its own sake are the Hitler-Kim Il-Sung-Khamenei types.
If you were to propose giving a sophisticated consumer of power an arbitrary amount of power without explaining how it solves a problem that they’ve got, they’ll stop the conversation — hang up the phone, change the channel, turn the page, twist the dial, click on something else.
I’d be uncomfortable discussing power with someone who wanted to sell me something, too. I want to hear a concise solution to my problem. Sometimes, I need a hand constructing a concise statement of my problem first.

]]> By: Jeremy http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3160 Jeremy Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:57:48 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3160 MarkN, you MarkN, you

]]> By: Hamish http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3159 Hamish Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:02:58 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3159 Hmmm... Talking about power is a bit like walking into a bar, walking up to a girl and asking for a fuck. She might nor might not be interested, but sure as hell you haven't given your own chances any good by not allowing context to build up. What do I mean by context? Even if the girl is mad with lust for you, she is unlikely to run out of the door with you because she has not had time to build up a context about "Is this guy a nice guy, or a psycho." If she thinks your nice, or at least interesting, then she might agree to date, or a phone call or something, but only the really bonkers ones will fuck you, unless you're in Finland. (I'm happily married, but when I was on a project in Helsinki my single colleagues had some really startling (and enjoyable) experiences with the Finns.) So, if you start talking about power, you're really laying yourself out to be challenged on exactly how powerful you really are, so people never do it unless they're pretty sure of their ground. So the subject never gets discussed. It's true in the animal kingdom, too. Watch two strange dogs meeting for the first time. They spent a lot of time and effort in gradually and politely assessing who is dominant. It's a lot less effort than fighting to establish it, so it's a good strategy, but it leads to an indirectness of approach. People ain't no different. Hmmm…
Talking about power is a bit like walking into a bar, walking up to a girl and asking for a fuck. She might nor might not be interested, but sure as hell you haven’t given your own chances any good by not allowing context to build up. What do I mean by context? Even if the girl is mad with lust for you, she is unlikely to run out of the door with you because she has not had time to build up a context about “Is this guy a nice guy, or a psycho.” If she thinks your nice, or at least interesting, then she might agree to date, or a phone call or something, but only the really bonkers ones will fuck you, unless you’re in Finland. (I’m happily married, but when I was on a project in Helsinki my single colleagues had some really startling (and enjoyable) experiences with the Finns.)
So, if you start talking about power, you’re really laying yourself out to be challenged on exactly how powerful you really are, so people never do it unless they’re pretty sure of their ground. So the subject never gets discussed.
It’s true in the animal kingdom, too. Watch two strange dogs meeting for the first time. They spent a lot of time and effort in gradually and politely assessing who is dominant. It’s a lot less effort than fighting to establish it, so it’s a good strategy, but it leads to an indirectness of approach. People ain’t no different.

]]> By: hugh macleod http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3158 hugh macleod Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:57:11 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3158 Hmmm... Maybe Hobbes with a bit of Hume thrown in ;-) Hmmm… Maybe Hobbes with a bit of Hume thrown in ;-)

]]> By: MarkN http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3157 MarkN Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:37:36 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3157 Jeremy, the second guy you visited with must have spent too much time wandering in the poppies. Economically speaking, market power is the domain of monopolists (supply-side) and monopsonists (demand-side), both of whom reduce their own production in order to coerce higher prices and maximize total profit. The power in markets is quantity. The upshot is if you can Jeremy, the second guy you visited with must have spent too much time wandering in the poppies. Economically speaking, market power is the domain of monopolists (supply-side) and monopsonists (demand-side), both of whom reduce their own production in order to coerce higher prices and maximize total profit. The power in markets is quantity.
The upshot is if you can

]]> By: Jeremy http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3156 Jeremy Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:01:31 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3156 Did you mean power employed in a Hobbesian (i.e. brutish, nasty) way? Coercive power is, I suppose, the application of power in a Hobbesian way. I asked to which you referred because I was, and remain, unsure of what Hobbesian power meant. Hobbes believed humankind was principally wicked and untrustworthy. As a result Hobbes proposed absolute authority for a monarchy as the only reasonable offset to protect people from their own evil impulses. It wasn't until you fingered economics that I caught your direction. Competition and selfishness were the principle drivers of neo-classical economics (the version we were taught in school). And selfishness is certainly a driver of Hobbesian thought. But I can still be an economist and not completely agree with either Hobbes or neo-classical economic thought. When one considers human action, it isn Did you mean power employed in a Hobbesian (i.e. brutish, nasty) way? Coercive power is, I suppose, the application of power in a Hobbesian way. I asked to which you referred because I was, and remain, unsure of what Hobbesian power meant.
Hobbes believed humankind was principally wicked and untrustworthy. As a result Hobbes proposed absolute authority for a monarchy as the only reasonable offset to protect people from their own evil impulses.
It wasn’t until you fingered economics that I caught your direction. Competition and selfishness were the principle drivers of neo-classical economics (the version we were taught in school). And selfishness is certainly a driver of Hobbesian thought. But I can still be an economist and not completely agree with either Hobbes or neo-classical economic thought.
When one considers human action, it isn

]]> By: Brand New Malaysian http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3165 Brand New Malaysian Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:37:52 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3165 <strong>Empowering Your Brand</strong> Tom Peter's underlined the need for employees to be involved in the customer experience. I had always thought that it was rather lame when organisations shoot for high brand objectives, yet leave their customer service in the dark about the... Empowering Your Brand

Tom Peter’s underlined the need for employees to be involved in the customer experience. I had always thought that it was rather lame when organisations shoot for high brand objectives, yet leave their customer service in the dark about the…

]]> By: Jozef Imrich http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3155 Jozef Imrich Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:04:15 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3155 "Whatever Party of Men obtain the Reins of Management, and have power to name the Person who shall License the Press, that Party of Men have the whole power of keeping the World in Ignorance, in all matters relating to Religion or Policy, since the Writers of that Party shall have full liberty to impose their Notions upon the World." -- Daniel Defoe - "An Essay on the Regulation of the Press" (1704) “Whatever Party of Men obtain the Reins of Management, and have power to name the Person who shall License the Press, that Party of Men have the whole power of keeping the World in Ignorance, in all matters relating to Religion or Policy, since the Writers of that Party shall have full liberty to impose their Notions upon the World.“
– Daniel Defoe — “An Essay on the Regulation of the Press” (1704)

]]> By: hugh macleod http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3154 hugh macleod Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:00:48 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3154 I'm really talking about the Hobbesian kind. Sure, we recoil from it in polite society, yet beneath the surface it's everywhere, even while waiting in line at Starbucks ;-) As an economist, would you not agree? I’m really talking about the Hobbesian kind.
Sure, we recoil from it in polite society, yet beneath the surface it’s everywhere, even while waiting in line at Starbucks ;-)
As an economist, would you not agree?

]]> By: Jeremy http://gapingvoid.com/2004/12/21/power/#comment-3153 Jeremy Wed, 22 Dec 2004 07:14:28 +0000 http://gapingvoid.com/?p=1092#comment-3153 Interesting post Hugh. It caught my attention because my last two days have been plumb full of conversations about power. You could argue there are three kinds of power: Charismatic, Cooperative, and Cohercive. Most people think only of the last form, maybe what you're calling Hobbesian. One friend's advice - Use logic first, power second, and authority last. Second conversation, while discussing the currency of policy creation and the use of economic models, the guy I'm visiting with says, "Think price and quantity. Price is power. Quantity is policy. Want a better policy? Forget right, forget marketing, forget winning over stakeholders - think power." What kind of power are you talking about Hugh? And do you think it's the best currency? Interesting post Hugh. It caught my attention because my last two days have been plumb full of conversations about power.
You could argue there are three kinds of power: Charismatic, Cooperative, and Cohercive. Most people think only of the last form, maybe what you’re calling Hobbesian. One friend’s advice — Use logic first, power second, and authority last.
Second conversation, while discussing the currency of policy creation and the use of economic models, the guy I’m visiting with says, “Think price and quantity. Price is power. Quantity is policy. Want a better policy? Forget right, forget marketing, forget winning over stakeholders — think power.“
What kind of power are you talking about Hugh? And do you think it’s the best currency?

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